An Interview with La Esquina Del Rol
A chat about Substratum and Game Design with Mexican Publisher, La Esquina Del Rol
Hello, everyone!
We had the opportunity to sit down with Mario from La Esquina Del Rol, a Mexican publisher who interviews game designers and translates their answers for the Spanish TTRPG community. They asked if they could interview us about our upcoming game, Substratum Protocol, our game design philosophy, and how we work with other creators. We happily agreed!
They were gracious enough to let us post the interview in English too, which you’ll find below.
Mario | La esquina del rol
Andy! Welcome to La Esquina del Rol! Right now you are funding a new game that reminds me a lot of my childhood reading Jules Verne. But, before delving into crowdfunding, I ask about you. Who is Andy from Pandion Games, and how did you get into the indie TTRPG scene?
Andy | Pandion Games
Hello! Thank you for inviting me to talk about our games.
I'm Andy Boyd, the owner and designer behind Pandion Games, though we work with a lot of creators to help us make our games, from artists, editors, writers, play testers, and other game designers!
I got started in table top games about six years ago when I joined a Pathfinder game and was immediately hooked and ended up running several campaigns over the next three years. In 2020 I was making and publishing adventures and player aids for Quest RPG on itch.io, which I still really love. I wrote my first TTRPG called "Storyteller: A Campfire Narrative Game" because I ended up living in an RV and didn't have easy access to a table, dice or even good lighting at night, and I wanted a game that could support that!
Storyteller really set the path for me in terms of how I design games even today: there were no dedicated combat rules even though it's a horror game about a group surviving monsters, dice were optional as the resolution mechanics were a series of mini games like rock-paper-scissors, and there are tools to quickly building the start of the story together with your players, rather than a game master needing to prepare ahead of time.
From there things continued to expand. I ended up working with another TTRPG designer pretty closely for several months to learn how to actually write and publish TTRPGs and the kind of questions to ask yourself at every step. They provided a lot of great information that helped me dive into making games. And in November of 2021, Pandion Games was officially born!
Mario: Wow, Pathfinder! That blows me away, it's great to learn more about you, Andy. The first thing I played was pathfinder too.
You mentioned a topic that, I think, is fundamental for any newbie RPG designer: collaborating with other designers.
I know very well your relationship with René-Pier, I know that you both work very well together, exchange ideas, develop mechanics, etc. The results of that relationship can be seen in the successful games you have published. You are both amazing.
Would you mind explaining to us (mainly for the newbie designers who might read us) how this collaboration between RP and you works? For example, during the creative process of developing a new game?
Andy: I love this question because RP and I make fairly different games, but we do work so well together.
RP and I collaborate in two different ways: as collaborating development editors, and as hired freelancers. How we first started down this road is we helped each other find layout mistakes for our earlier games and it grew from there. For RP's Stoneburner game, I acted in both capacities - I helped be the sounding board to dial in a lot of ideas and mechanics, look over the layout, and give all kinds of design suggestions. He also hired me as a Sector and Kit writer.
I think the reason RP and I work so well together is we never try to have joint ownership over a specific game. That is, if I am pitching ideas or sharing my design of a game with RP, I am automatically the lead designer and publisher of the game and have the final say in what is put into the game. The opposite is true too.
In those instances, our goal is to provide feedback and ask questions to make the vision and mechanics of the game better and clearer. We'll ask if the other person is looking for critique and suggestions, or a celebration of what they've made. I think for designers to work well together, both are needed. We also think it's important to use a "Yes, and..." or "Yes, but..." approach to critique, and rarely outright say no to an idea: "Using degrading dice for combat is fantastic, but the dwarves feel very powerful. What happens if their dice start one step lower (d8 instead of d10)?"
The other way we work together is more formal: we hire each other as paid freelancers! And honestly I think this is a great way to collaborate with other designers if you want them actually making content inside your game. We give each other specific tasks to accomplish with a deadline and offer payment. That's exactly how I wrote the Sector and Kit. And you can offer a flat rate, or a percentage of profits once you start selling the game.
Mario: Thank you so much for sharing that with our readers. I love your answer because in some chats with RP he told me exactly the same thing. hahaha! That shows how well you know each other and understand your way of working together. Congratulations!
Let's move on. I've had a chance to read the pdf preview of The Substratum Protocol. It is a beautiful PDF with incredible illustrations, very much in the style of Pandion Games.
When I finished reading it, my first thought was "While we are all stargazing, or running GRANDMOTHERSHIP (shout out to my friend Armanda). Andy makes us look at the core of the earth".
I wonder what was the source of inspiration for this concept, and how was the creative process behind this project to make it a reality?
Andy: Thank you! Galen Pejeau really did a fantastic job with the illustrations for the game. My layout method is certainly 'messier' than a lot of TTRPG books, but we still work to make it easily readable.
Believe it or not, Substratum Protocol started its life as a Breathless game just called "Substratum"! RP had just released Breathless and its SRD and was running a game jam for it.
I was thinking about how I could make a survival game in my own style: One where combat wasn't the focus of the game but the tension of survival was still there. I was really into Subnautica at the time and loved this idea of scientists surviving and overcoming challenges in an alien environment - scientifically.
I loved the core concept of Substratum and started thinking about what I would do if I didn't restrict the game to the bifold layout. When starting a new project, I always start with an ideation document. This is really a high level overview of what I want the game to be about, what I want the players to do it in, and their goals. Kind of like an outline. From there, I dug into the specifics. I really wanted this to be a bigger game, and for players to be able to make interesting game mechanics decisions when overcoming challenges.
I added in new mechanics I was experimenting with and how they tie together: Card draws vs dice rolls, collecting cards to power exosuit abilities, and the clue and knowledge systems from our new mystery games. Even in the first version scientists collected "portal datum", and had to collect 6 to win the game, but I wanted something more narrative and interactive for overcoming the central challenge.
This is also one of the first games that we spent a lot of time working with play testers on! They really helped me identify where things were bland or missing that could be expanded on. (I'm happy to share the release notes I'd give out to my play testers if your readers are interested in seeing that).
Mario: Thanks for sharing with us what your creative process with Substratum Protocol has been like.
Let's move on. I'd like to delve into the core concept of the game and its mechanics. In the Backerkit page you present it as 'a solo+ survival mystery TTRPG utilizing step-down dice and card draw mechanics, Substratum Protocol is playable as both a solo game or guided by a GM'.
But tell us, what is the game about, and how do mechanics from systems like Breathless, Firelights, Hints and Hijinx, and elements of Brindlewood Bay and Grandmothership work in the game?
Andy: Substratum Protocol is really about a group of scientists in specially made exosuits who have been thrust into this expedition - perhaps against their will - in a last ditch effort to understand what is happening to our planet as it's splits apart and, if possible, put a solution in place to stop it. It's a mystery game at its core. While the players are attempting to reach the portal, they're also collecting clues and attempting to understand what they mean.
Collecting these clues and working together to assemble them into a coherent hypothesis of what is happening increases an end-game skill we call the Portal Skill, and, unlike normal Skills, there is no cap to the Portal Skill. It starts at a d0 (no knowledge) and can increase to a d20 + modifier (expert knowledge) for each clue and knowledge players use to make their final hypothesis: The more you know and understand, the easier it will be to save the planet.
So that's the general idea behind the game.
Andy: The skills players have, and the way that their dice step-down over time is directly taken from Breathless. It is such an elegant system for survival games and tension. With that also comes the "Take a Breath" mechanic, which is how players will recharge their skills but at the cost of introducing complications to the story. We also tied some special abilities to Take a Breath, saying "this is powerful, but if you are willing to add complication to the story, you can use it anytime you want."
Using playing cards to set the target that players need to beat with their skill checks comes from Firelights. What we expanded on is then collecting the cards they rolled greater than to power their exosuit abilities and the different ways players discard their cards. For instance, you may need to lay down two cards of the same suit, or lay down a card versus the GM, who then draws a card from the deck to see if you succeed.
One of the things I really love about this is it gives players something to think about mechanically: Do they lay down their King to ensure they get a victory against the GM? Or do we know that all that's left are low numbered cards. It gives players the option to think mechanically in the moment, but it remains optional for those who would rather just dash cards across the table dramatically!
Hints and Hijinx is our mystery system! Originally designed for solo games, the core system has over 20 games made for it now. I love Hints and Hijinx, so much, if I may say that.
This is where our Clues and Final Hypothesis mechanics comes from. It is inspired by Brindlewood Bay in that the answer to the mystery is not predetermined, and this is true in Substratum Protocol as well. When players collect clues and uncover what they mean, they are adding their own ideas of what is happening inspired by the clue they found. We actually don't give any hard answers to the mystery in the book, we ask questions of the players instead.
This idea of combining clues to increase a skill was inspired by an early design of GRANDMOTHERSHIP by Armanda Haller, and it was a critical piece to making Hints and Hijinx really shine. Now instead of saying "If you collect 6 clues you win", we can say "Every time you collect a clue, the chance of your ideas being correct increases. At what percentage are you comfortable making your final hypothesis?"
All of these different mechanics play really well together to build tension and story, while giving the players something to consider mechanically. But they're all simple enough that they don't get in the way of gameplay (like constantly needing to look up rules in the book).
What is unique about Substratum Protocol is that this is the first truly multiplayer Hints and Hijinx game. Because it started as a solo system, and we added multiplayer to it (rather than the other way around), we like to call it "Solo+" rather than "Solo Friendly".
Mario: Wow, you leave me speechless. It's amazing when everything fits so perfectly on a mechanical and conceptual level. Congratulations, you have a really amazing role-playing game. And, of course, you get one new backer here! 😋
One question that came to my mind when reading the Backerkit page was about the two styles of solo play. One of them is clear to me, using the Hints and Hijinx system, but the second one I don't know if I'm getting it right. How would it be to solo play in that other way?
Andy: Great question! (and thank you for backing!) There are two general ways to play a game solo. Most of what I make are solo journaling games, that's what Hints and Hijinx games are. It kind of leads you along the story of your making and asks you leading questions (or prompts) to answer. I love these kind of games because they can usually be played in an afternoon, and even for an apocalyptic mystery game, can still be relaxing. In the simpler solo rules, players will go to a sector, discover a complication, and make a roll to overcome it, and move to the next sector before finding another complication. They'll write about each of those things in their journal.
The second way is using something like a GM emulator (like Mythic or Ironsworn's rules), where players act as both the GM and characters. This is a much more freeform way of playing as there's no set of steps or loop. The player would use the tables in the book to help them generate the story and what happens, but they are much more in charge of adding their own complications, worldbuilding, where to go, and when to move on to different sectors.
When you play this way in Substratum Protocol, you make your main character you'll control and they'll be the Expedition Leader. Then, you use a special Team Folio that has their own dice, inventory, etc. Mechanically this lets the other 3 characters act under a single roll and set of stats so you aren't managing 4 character folios. When the Team 'dies', a member is removed from the team, and all their dice step down, representing the loss of that team member.
I wanted to have both solo versions in the game. One is very traditionally a solo journaling game, and easy to pick up and play, while the other set of rules is for essentially playing a multiplayer game by yourself.
Mario: That is so rad! It is very interesting because the game offers both styles of solo play. I'm not sure if I've seen something like this before, usually you find one (journaling) or another style (as an extra supplement) in a game. Not both. My question was about that, I didn't imagine you would include both experiences.
Let's move on. Substratum Protocol was funded at 2 hours. It is a reality with over 300 backers supporting it. I'd like you to take a deep breath and then imagine what comes next. Both for Substratum Protocol and for your passionate quest, as an RPG designer, developing and refining mechanics. What's next for the game and for you as a designer?
Andy: You probably know that we like to work on many things at once! For Substratum Protocol, we are finishing up the final touches before sending it off to our editor for another big round of edits, but we will likely get it sent off to the printers pretty quick at this point, and I'll be handling the fulfillment. If things grow too big for me to handle, we'll work with someone like Indie Press Revolution to fulfill all the books.
Looking at our next game and its mechanics, I've been working on a diceless system that uses tokens for players and a deck of cards for the GM. The system is pretty well-developed at this point, and I'm having to force myself not to work on it because Substratum needs my attention! I haven't ever seen a system like what we're developing, which also means a lot of play testing in the future. But I'm very excited about it.
The new system follows in Substratum's footsteps of being rules lite and narrative focused, while adding a bit more mechanical crunch to give players customization and mechanics to think about during play on top of the roleplaying. I have several game ideas in the works, but which one will get made first for the system? I'm not sure yet! We have an idea for a cozier small-town conspiracy club game where out of control laboratories run deep underground. Another about sailors in steel-hulled trawlers on the northern seas reclaiming their homes from industrialists. Even a game idea about a civilization that lives among our inner minds, and you play as a group of travelers that hop 'between worlds'. And more, too! All of them are still in very early stages of development.
Mario: I'm excited about what you said, I follow your work because you take risks to create role-playing games, and you manage to do it in an interesting way.
You have been translated in Spanish by 'Refugio de Ryhope'. Your game 'Badger and Coyote' has been a success in our language. I know you are a person interested in making your games accessible, you use Creative Commons for their licensing for instance, (thank you for that!) and sincerely, since I know you, you have always been very kind to me.
What message would you like to share through us to the Spanish-speaking community that follows you and consumes your games?
Andy: We hope to translate more of our games into Spanish as well and continue to use open licensing well into the future. I'd just like to say I am incredibly grateful to everyone who takes the time to read and play our games! It is genuinely why I do this, and I hope to keep making fun games for the global community of players for a long while.
Knowing that Spanish-speakers enjoy playing our games makes it easier to have them translated and published in the future, too! So please keep letting us know which games you're interested in, and we can work to get those translated first and available to everyone. And really, thanks to everyone for all the support.
Mario: Thank you very much, Andy! It was a very interesting interview. Thanks for your time. I hope to repeat at some point, it's great to learn more from you and your creative processes. I'm going to interview René-Pier soon, any questions you'd like to leave for him to answer?
Andy: Thank you for taking the time to run this interview! It was a lot of fun. I'd be more than happy to come back! I think a good question for RP might be "What is your process for coming up with interesting worlds or concepts for your games?"
Mario: Good question. Thank you very much, Andy. Well, dear readers. This is the amazing Andy Boyd from Pandion Games. If you're interested in a really fascinating game where you're a scientist investigating unexplained mysteries in the Earth's core, then Substratum Protocol is for you. Back it!
Thanks Andy!
Thanks for reading! If this conversation sparked any questions, drop them in the comments!
-Andy Boyd
Pandion Games